Jehovah Witnesses Are Wrong About The Cross

Jehovah Witnesses Facts

If you’ve ever had the chance to speak with a Jehovah’s Witness your conversation may have touched upon if Jesus Christ was crucified on a stake or cross? Jehovah Witnesses claim that Christians who “worship” the cross are not “true Christians”. Jehovah Witnesses are taught by the Watchtower that the cross is a pagan symbol. Is this true?

Here’s a quote from the JW.org notice the double talk. The Jehovah Witnesses claim “no one can know its shape with absolute certainty”. 

Many view the cross as the most common symbol of Christianity. However, the Bible does not describe the instrument of Jesus’ death, so no one can know its shape with absolute certainty. Still, the Bible provides evidence that Jesus died, not on a cross, but on an upright stake. – Watchtower

Then they say “the Bible provides evidence that Jesus died, not on a cross, but on an upright stake”. Which is it can no one know or can they, and how did the Watchtower come to this conclusion?

Jehovah Witnesses will typically point you to the Greek word “stauros” as there proof. Here’s what the Greek definition is concerning the word stauros. 

σταυρός staurós, stow-ros’; a stake or post (as set upright), i.e. (specially), a pole or cross (as an instrument of capital punishment); figuratively, exposure to death, i.e. self-denial; by implication, the atonement of Christ:—cross.

At this point you may have the Jehovah Witness point you to this verse in their manipulated Bible the New World Translation which reads.

Matthew 27:40 NWT and saying: “You who would throw down the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! If you are a son of God, come down off the torture stake!

Notice the Watchtower inserted the word “torture stake” in order for the text to align with their biased teachings. Here’s what the Bible actually says when speaking about the cross, all translations render it as a cross not a stake. The New World Translation is the only Bible to insert the word “stake” in their own Bible.

Matthew 27:40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest [it] in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

Jehovah Witness must ask themselves because their translation renders the word stake in their Bible does that mean every other Bible is wrong?

On their website, they have an article titled “Did Jesus Die on a Cross?”. In this article, there’s another statement I’d like to draw to your attention.

According to A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament, stau·rosʹ “never means two pieces of wood joining each other at any angle.” – Watchtower

Ethelbert w. Bullinger

The quote contained above was from Mr Bullinger and was noted as being contemporary thinking on his part. He is the only “scholar” that directly opposes the cross with every other scholar who agrees that Jesus Christ did die on a cross.

The Jehovah Witnesses include this statement on their website quoting Mr Bullinger (bolded).

The Bible also uses the Greek word xyʹlon as a synonym for stau·rosʹ. (Acts 5:​30; 1 Peter 2:​24) This word means “wood,” “timber,” “stake,” or “tree.”* The Companion Bible thus concludes: “There is nothing in the Greek of the N[ew] T[estament] even to imply two pieces of timber.” – Watchtower

The “Companion Bible and the lexicon the Watchtower is referencing are both written by Mr Bullinger the same scholar. Therefore the Watchtower is only referencing this one scholar who is against the cross, as opposed to looking at other scholars who disagree with Mr Bullinger and collectively say that Jesus indeed was crucified on a cross.

In addition to this Mr Bullinger was the president of the Trinitarian Bible Society which is odd because the Jehovah Witnesses deny the Trinity and call it satanic; but if someone agrees with their position on something they will quote it. They pick and choose what words to reference when it agrees with their doctrine they’ll display it on their website, but when this same scholar who believed in the Trinity they choose to neglect that teaching.

The Cross Predates Christianity?

Another argument Jehovah Witnesses try to use is that the cross was used before the crucifixion of Christ. Is that a valid reason not to believe in the cross? Just because something was used beforehand doesn’t mean Jesus was not crucified on a cross? That would be a silly argument to hold.

The Watchtower would say that “pagan religions” used the cross for worship. Does that negate the fact that the Romans crucified the Lord Jesus on a cross? If He was that wouldn’t change the fact that He died on a cross and therefore that doesn’t make the cross “pagan” because others somehow used it.

The Watchtower claims they don’t know if Jesus died on a cross or not and turn around saying the cross shouldn’t be worshipped is double talk. Here’s another quote from their site which states.

THE cross is loved and respected by millions of people. The Encyclopædia Britannica calls the cross “the principal symbol of the Christian religion.” Nevertheless, true Christians do not use the cross in worship. – Watchtower

This is a strong statement to make without knowing for certain if Jesus died on a cross or not according to Watchtower while at the same time saying “true Christians do not use the cross in worship”. Since the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus all Christians recognised the cross for thousands of years yet the Jehovah Witnesses are claiming to be the only “true Christians” when they are anything but a cult masquerading to be Christian.

The Bible uses the word “cross”  28 times in 28 verses in the King James Bible, occurs 86 times in the NKJV and occurs 50 times in the ESV. Only the New World Translation changes it to “stake”, the Watchtower is basically saying every scribe and scholar has it wrong except them.

If they hold to this position then the burden of proof would lie with the Watchtower, since they so strongly feel the cross is “pagan” and “true Christians do not use the cross in worship” one might think they have solid proof of this but they don’t.

The Watchtower solely references only the works of Ethelbert w. Bullinger when it suits them, and he is discredited by all of his peers as his teachings are not aligned with archaeological findings. The Bible is very clear that Jesus Christ died on a cross.

Matthew 27:31-32 And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify [him]. And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross.

The One Who Died

Christians are not worshipping the cross itself we’re worshipping the One who died on that cross giving Himself for our sins. Just because the cross is referenced has nothing to do with idolatry, is the Watchtower willing to say the bronze serpent which Moses told the children of Israel to look at (Numbers 21:6-8); would they consider that idolatry as well? When we ask these simple questions the answer becomes clear, of course not.

Numbers 21:6-8 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

God would never lead anyone to commit idolatry

John 3:14-15 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

No matter how hard the cults try to get rid of the cross, or deny Jesus as God, or deny the Godhead/Trinity. They will never succeed because the truth of God’s word will endure forever!

Psalm 119:89 LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

Psalm 102:12 But thou, O LORD, shalt endure for ever; and thy remembrance unto all generations.

Psalm 104:31 The glory of the LORD shall endure for ever: the LORD shall rejoice in his works.

37 thoughts on “Jehovah Witnesses Are Wrong About The Cross

  1. Yes the Jehovah Witness’s are a cult, but this ONE THING they say is true and they use that fact to get converts.
    Just as (Greek: exactly, identical to) Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so will the Son of man be lifted up. Moses lifted up the serpent on a POLE. They nailed the person to the wooden post and then lifted them up and placed the pole. Our Lord and Savior is telling us exactly what would hapen, not just a ‘spiritual’ metaphor. Thomas said: Unless i see in His Hands, the print of the NAIL (singular) Greek word for word without a prejudiced translator). It is not just Bullinger, but others like Vines that state that STAUROS is a wooden POLE. Remains of a crucified person found int the Catacombs, one limb crossed over the other and ONE NAIL used found still stuck in the remains and a piece of the STAUROS. The main form of Roman crucifixion if you go back before all of the lies was on a CRUX SIMPLEX… a WOODEN POLE. At one time, they crucified over 6,000 people in one day. You really believe they stopped to make 6,000 crosses and 6,.000 extra nails. In Homer’s Story, The Odyssey, the Argonauts put out the eye of the cyclops with a STAUROS… A WOODEN POLE sharpened at one end. No, we are not saying that our Lord and Savior was crucified on a pole sharpened at one end, we are saying that He was CRUCIFIED ON A WOODEN POLE. We could save a lot of people from the JW cult if we would just skip the pagan stuff brought in by the apostate church. The ‘cross’ or ”TAU’ is the symbol of the false pagan god Tammuz…We have corrected a lot of the pagan stuff brought in by the apostate church, lets fix this one… There are answers to all of your protests… but this is getting lengthy….

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    1. Actually, you’re wrong notice Thomas said NAILS (plural) not singular. Here’s the New World Translation on John 20:25, can you show me the word “nail”? Otherwise, they have a mistranslation because I see the word “nails” (plural) not singular.

      John 20:25 NWT So the other disciples were telling him: “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them: “Unless I see in his hands the print of the NAILS and stick my finger into the print of the NAILS and stick my hand into his side, I will never believe it.”

      It was not a singular nail, the Greek word ἥλων is an inflected word. As for the cross it’s self Stauros only means an upright beam, that doesn’t deny the fact that a Cross is an upright beam. You’re focused in the cross beam, which the word Stauros doesn’t reject the cross as being a beam of sorts.

      You seem to forget that a singular pole without a crossbeam couldn’t have been used because the word of God says the written superscription was ABOVE HIS HEAD not hands.

      Matthew 27:33-38 And when they were come unto a place called Golgotha, that is to say, a place of a skull, They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted [thereof], he would not drink. And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots. And sitting down they watched him there; And set up OVER HIS HEAD HIS ACCUSATION WRITTEN, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS. Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

      Also note the 2 thieves were one on the RIGHT HAND, and another ON THE LEFT. If there was no crossbeam this wouldn’t make sense, it could simply say one on his right SIDE and the other on his left SIDE etc. The fact that right hand and left are mentioned proves there was indeed a cross beam. Furthermore, the cross whether “pagan” or not doesn’t matter, as we don’t worship the cross, we worship the One who was on the cross not the cross itself.

      The Watchtower shows images of Jesus on a pole with his hands crossed and a singular nail just as you’ve stated, according to John 20:25 was there one nail or more than one nail in Jesus hands?

      Lastly, can you read with me John 21:18-19

      John 21:18-19 Most truly I say to you, when you were younger, you used to clothe yourself and walk about where you wanted. But when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and another man will clothe you and carry you where you do not wish.” He said this to indicate by what sort of death he would glorify God. After he said this, he said to him: “Continue following me.”

      This refers to Peter’s death rather than Jesus, however, this reference to the stretching out of hands does show that the traditional cross was in use at this time. Doesn’t this indicate that crucifixion involved the stretching out of a person’s hands at his sides rather than stretching out his arms with his hands being nailed above his head?

      Their own NWT bible rejects this idea and uses the word “nails”.

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      1. .

        I have a stack of GREEK Language books here, and they all say the word that Thomas used was NAIL, singular. In the remains found in the Catacombs, of a body that had been crucified, the limbs were crossed one over the other and ONE NAIL was used and was still stuck in the skeletal remains and a piece of the wood. Your understanding of the Greek language here is lacking, and I take NO ONES personal translation, I am talking about what it actually says in the Greek Manuscripts.

        In the Greek Manuscripts, Thomas says ‘hands’ plural, and ‘nail’ singular. Even some translations have seen this like the NIV and they translate it this way, ‘But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail (singular) marks in his hands and put my finger…’. That is what happens when you get an honest and faithful translator who is willing to take the slings and arrows of a more honest translation. You are making the mistake of taking the word of a translator instead of what it actually says in the Greek Manuscripts that men are ‘supposed’ to be translating from. Instead, they ignore the real Scriptures and what they say and just change it to whatever their church doctrine says, regardless of the actual Truth. The majority of the Scriptures just say ‘above Him’ New International Version There was a written notice above him, which read: this is the king of the jews.

        New Living Translation A sign was fastened above him with these words: “This is the King of the Jews.”

        English Standard Version There was also an inscription over him, “This is the King of the Jews.”

        Berean Study Bible Above Him was posted an inscription: THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

        Berean Literal Bible And there was also this inscription over Him: The King of the Jews.

        King James Bible And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

        New King James Version And an inscription also was written over Him in letters of Greek, Latin, and Hebrew: THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

        New American Standard Bible Now there was also an inscription above Him, “THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.”

        Mark 15:26 And the superscription of his accusation was written over, THE KING OF THE JEWS.

        Luke 23:38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

        It is very clear if you real ALL of the Scriptures, that it was just ‘above’. There was plenty of room to fix the superscription to the top of the Wooden Pole, which would be ‘above’ His head.

        Stauros means a wooden pole, never a cross. It only becomes a cross when the church went apostate and started taking in pagan symbols to get more people n to their church and get more money. The cross is the symbol for the pagan god, TAMMUZ. The worshippers of Tammuz put crosses in their places of worship and on hilltops, exactly as is being done today. Again, Homer’s story, The Odyssey, is a good example, free of the apostate church, where the Argonauts use a ‘stauros’ sharpened at one end to put out the eye of the Cyclops They were in peril for their lives. They did not stop to make a cross. They put out the eye of the Cyclops with a wooden pole sharpened at one end which was a very common item and was readily available to them. The Romans used a Crux Simplex (wooden pole) the majority of the time as they were readily available and only needed 2 nails to crucify someone. They had them readily available because they also used them for making the walls of forts, animal pens and anywhere they needed to have some kind if fencing or barrier. EXACTLY, IDENTICAL, to the way Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up. The wooden pole was laid on the ground, the person nailed to it, and then they were LIFTED UP and the wooden pole fixed to the ground. Moses LIFTED UP the serpent on a POLE. Don’t try to pass this off as just ‘spiritual’. He was describing EXACTLY how He would be crucified… On a POLE and literally LIFTED UP. We are not saved or healed by His crucifixion, but by HIs Resurrection.

        New International Version And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.

        New Living Translation And if Christ has not been raised, then all our preaching is useless, and your faith is useless.

        English Standard Version And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.

        Berean Study Bible And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless, and so is your faith.

        Berean Literal Bible And if Christ has not been raised, then also our preaching is void, and your faith is void.

        King James Bible And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

        New King James Version And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.

        Also note the 2 thieves were one on the RIGHT HAND, and another ON THE LEFT.: So if I say, this is my right hand man, then it means I am being crucified on a cross? This was just a way of saying back then, and even now, that there were others being crucified to the right and left of him. I have a left hand and a right hand turn signal on my car. It does not mean that I am being crucified, nor do I drive with my right and left hands extended to my right and left.

        The word that they translate ‘hand’ in the Bible, back then, meant the area from the fingertips to the crook of the elbow. Example, when you went to the market place and bought cloth, you would tell the merchant how many ‘hands’ of cloth that you wanted. That merchant would then measure from his fingertips to the crook of their elbow however many times of ‘hands’ that you had told him that you wanted. That word translated ‘hand’ in the Bible did not mean what it does to us today. Every time you quote a Scripture using the word ‘hand’ or ‘hands’ to try and back up the pagan teaching of a cross, you are doing it with a lack of knowledge and understanding.

        We are agreed on this: The Jehovah’s Witnesses are a cult. They use this ONE truth about crosses to get converts. We can take that away from them.

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      2. My lost friend I actually own a Greek NT, and the verse you’re quoting John 20:25 when Thomas said “Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails” doesn’t indicate what you’re saying.

        John 20:25 We have seen the Lord (εωρακαμεν τον κυριον). The very language in the plural that Mary Magdalene had used (20:18) when no one believed her. Except I shall see (εαν μη ιδω). Negative condition of third class with εαν and second aorist active subjunctive and so as to βαλω (from βαλλω) “and put.”The print (τον τυπον). The mark or stamp made by the nails, here the original idea. Various terms as in Acts 7:44; 1 Timothy 4:12 . Finally our “type” as in Romans 5:14. Clearly, the disciples had told Thomas that they had seen the τυπον of the nails in his hands and the spear in his side. I will not believe (ου μη πιστευσω). Strong refusal with ου μη (doubtful negative) and first aorist active subjunctive (or future indicative).

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      3. .

        Just because you try to keep saying that it is ‘plural’ does not make it so….

        In the Greek Manuscripts, he says, ‘unless I see in his hands the mark of the nail’…. I am not alone in noticing that the word is NAIL, Singular… Many others have noticed it also, for example:

        New Living Translation They told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he replied, “I won’t believe it unless I see the nail wounds in his hands, put my fingers into them, and place my hand into the wound in his side.”

        Contemporary English Version So they told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But Thomas said, “First, I must see the nail scars in his hands and touch them with my finger. I must put my hand where the spear went into his side. I won’t believe unless I do this!”

        GOD’S WORD® Translation The other disciples told him, “We’ve seen the Lord.” Thomas told them, “I refuse to believe this unless I see the nail marks in his hands, put my fingers into them, and put my hand into his side.”

        International Standard Version So the other disciples kept telling him, “We’ve seen the Lord!” But he told them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands, put my finger into them, and put my hand into his side, I’ll never believe!”

        And there are others….

        One ‘hand’ crossed over the other. and one nail leaving two marks, one in each ‘hand’,, just exactly like the crucified remains found in the Catacombs show…

        You can prove that crosses are not idols, just by getting rid of all of the crosses and images of crosses out of Christianity. Just ‘try’ telling the women that they cannot wear cross earrings, or the men and women to get rid of all of their cross necklaces… All those crosses of gold and silver and wood etc. What did you think they made all of those idols of old out of… Remember the golden calf?

        After our Lord and Savior rose from the grave, show me where he commanded us to make symbols of the thing that he was crucified on and put them in our places of worship, on the walls of our homes, and make jewelry with precious metals and wood and stuff and wear them in our ears and around our necks? I must have missed that commandment from Him? Please let me know where that is?

        Or show me where the disciples commanded us to do the same?

        Since crosses are not idols, YOU should have no problem getting rid of all of your personal crosses in your household, right. Since they are not idols they should have no hold on you. Nothing what so ever. Easy peasy and then let me know how you do on getting all of the crosses and images of crosses out of your life so I can congratulate you on your victory of proving that they are not idols. Or maybe you cannot get rid of them. Maybe they do have a hold on you?

        Again, we can take this Truth away from the JW’s and stop them from using it to convert people to their cult…

        I could just hear the Apostle Paul now, writing to the Corinthians… ‘and be sure to be wearing your crucifixion earrings and necklaces the next time I come to visit you. And be sure to keep a crucifixion image on the wall wherever you worship and pray.’ Yeah, right…. NOT!!!

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      4. You said: “ In the Greek Manuscripts, he says, ‘unless I see in his hands the mark of the nail’…. I am not alone in noticing that the word is NAIL, Singular”

        Provide the manuscript evidence you’re speaking of, do you have it?

        My lost friend I actually have the manuscript variations and in none does it say what you’re speaking of; if so provide the evidence.

        As for crosses I don’t have any hanging around in my house. Don’t run bring your manuscript evidence.

        It’s sad when someone like yourself has been influenced by the JW cult.

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      5. .

        Two Historical Bible Scholars much smarter than you or I, In Bullingers and Vines, they both list the GREEK word that is used in the manuscripts and they both translate it NAIL, SINGULAR… and other Scholars far smarter than you and I also agree on this…

        New Living Translation They told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he replied, “I won’t believe it unless I see the nail wounds in his hands, put my fingers into them, and place my hand into the wound in his side.”

        Contemporary English Version So they told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But Thomas said, “First, I must see the nail scars in his hands and touch them with my finger. I must put my hand where the spear went into his side. I won’t believe unless I do this!”

        GOD’S WORD® Translation The other disciples told him, “We’ve seen the Lord.” Thomas told them, “I refuse to believe this unless I see the nail marks in his hands, put my fingers into them, and put my hand into his side.”

        International Standard Version So the other disciples kept telling him, “We’ve seen the Lord!” But he told them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands, put my finger into them, and put my hand into his side, I’ll never believe!”

        A Faithful Version Then the other disciples said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in His hands, and put my finger into the nail marks, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe at all.”

        Contemporary English Version So they told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But Thomas said, “First, I must see the nail scars in his hands and touch them with my finger. I must put my hand where the spear went into his side. I won’t believe unless I do this!”

        GOD’S WORD® Translation The other disciples told him, “We’ve seen the Lord.” Thomas told them, “I refuse to believe this unless I see the nail marks in his hands, put my fingers into them, and put my hand into his side.”

        International Standard Version So the other disciples kept telling him, “We’ve seen the Lord!” But he told them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands, put my finger into them, and put my hand into his side, I’ll never believe!”

        Go to a good library or get your hands on these translations and the NFO on the Greek Manuscripts that they used will be there. These translations from the Greek Manuscripts are a ‘cloud’ of proof. I am afraid that you have some flaw in your reading of the Greek Language This is NOT meant to insult you as NONE OF US is 100% perfect in everything. Over 72 years there have been many times in my life that I have had to correct things that I had thought that I had down 100%. We all make mistakes and NONE OF US knows everything. NONE OF US is perfect… Only our Lord and Savior Yeshua Hamashiach is perfect, infallible and all knowing, not your and not myself.

        I have noticed that NFO that I have sent to you, that you have no answers for, that you just seem to politely ignore. You do not even acknowledge some of them.

        I am so glad to know that you have no idols in your home. That is so very good to hear. I am greatly saddened when I see people bowing down before crosses during worship or prayer….

        New King James Version Yet in this thing may the LORD pardon your servant: when my master goes into the temple of Rimmon to worship there, and he leans on my hand, and I bow down in the temple of Rimmon—when I bow down in the temple of Rimmon, may the LORD please pardon your servant in this thing.”

        Even though he was not worshipping Rimmon in his ‘heart’, he knew it was not a good thing to bow before an idol.

        Rimmon

        Rimmon…

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      6. My friend there are other scholars who disagree with this, therefore, do you deny them? And I asked you for the manuscript do you have it yes or no?

        The Romans killed a large number of individuals, and there is bountiful proof of this method for execution. The English word ‘crucifixion’ comes from the Latin, the language verbally expressed by the Romans. The Latin word ‘crucifixio’ signifies ‘to fix to a cross’ and it is framed from the prefix ‘cruci’ from the Latin word ‘crux’ (‘cross’) and the action word ‘figere’ (‘to fix or append’). There isn’t the smallest measure of uncertainty concerning the significance of these words, nor concerning the type of the cross.

        The Jehovah’s Witnesses base their case chiefly on one Greek word utilized in the New Testament: σταυρος (articulated ‘stow’ [as in ‘cow’] – ‘ross’). They say that this implies a post or a stake. Yet, they along these lines show the outrageous restrictions of their insight into Greek.

        The popular old style Greek artist Homer living in the twelfth and the ninth century BC At that point in time the word σταυρος implied a pole. Yet, in the hundreds of years preceding Christ, the Romans vanquished the Greeks. Greek kept on being the fundamental language utilized in every one of the nations that had recently been vanquished by the Greeks. However, the Romans forced their authoritative designs, their structural designing frameworks (streets, water channels, spans, sewerage frameworks, and so on) and – most importantly – their general set of laws, including torturous killing as the method for organization of capital punishment.

        In their ‘New World Translation’ of the Bible, the Jehovah’s Witnesses put the words ‘torment stake’ any place the Greek has the word σταυρος. This even goes against their own interlinear interpretation, which likewise inaccurately delivers σταυρος as ‘stake’ however essentially doesn’t add the word ‘torture’, which isn’t in the first Greek message (cf. John 19:19 or different references to the cross in the New Testament).

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      7. .

        Yes, I disagree with the Apostate Scholars who accept the things from paganism in the church. This is how they were raised, this is what they now believe and even if someone rose from the dead and told them they were in error they would not listen.

        I told you how to access the Greek Manuscripts for the BIBLE REFERENCES that I gave you for the word Nail being singular. I did it in the past and it was lot of work, now you can do it, IF you have an open heart. Plus the top of the Line, COMMONLY ACCEPTED by the Christian Community Scholars. Although this is something that you should already know how to do. I am not going to do your work for you. You are rejecting some of the top scholars in Christianity, I am just rejecting the Apostate scholars who have been indoctrinated in error and propagate those errors regardless of the Truth.

        The majority of the time the Romans crucified people on a CRUX SIMPLEX. A pole, just exactly what Yeshua prophesied and Moss did, lifted up the serpent on a POLE…. so are you calling Yeshua a LIAR??????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Or mistaken??????????????!!!!!!!!!!!! Or not being able to tell us details on how He would be put to death?????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My Yeshua is greater than that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        You really believe that when the Romans crucified over 6,000 in ONE DAY that they took all those POLES that they already had loads of laying around for forts, walls and animal pens etc., and stopped to make crosses?????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your really think that they stopped and took time to fine 6,000 more nails so they could nail them in 3 places instead of just using 12,000 and crossing their limbs one over the other and only needing to use 12,000 nails instead of using 18,000 nails????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How quickly you forget about the body that they found in the Catacombs that had been crucified that showed one limb crossed over the other and ONE NAIL then used for those 2 limbs, the nail even still being stuck in a piece of the wood from the pole????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        Reality, common sense, history, facts and archaeology completely and utterly debunk the apostate teaching that you have been indoctrinated with.

        This is what Martin Luther encountered when he nailed his paper in 1517 to the church door, calling them out on some of their Apostasy. And how many like yourself probably think, ‘oh, I would have been on Martin Luther’s side.’ Well, here is your chance.

        AGAIN….. We both agree that the Jehovah Witness’s are a CULT and full of errors. And I was able to show them an error in their version of the Bible where it in essence called Yeshua God. By the way, they took that Bible with them that last time, and when I took a look a year or so later, they had removed and changed that I wish that I still had that copy, it was in their Interlinear Version too. Like you, they were not doing a very good job of reading the Greek, but just believing what they had been indoctrinated with. They could no more correctly read that Greek than the man in the moon. I now that they are a cult with lots of errors in their teachings, Just exactly as I know that there is still a lot of paganism and apostate teachings in the church still today.

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      8. Nope I’m never calling the Lord Jesus a liar, you’re treading on thin ice by bearing false witness.

        Now you made a truth claim I expect you to provide the evidence. Don’t come to me claiming something without evidence.

        Now I’ll ask once again do you have the evidence for your claim yes or no? I don’t want your sermon I want to see evidence, if you cannot bring any then say so.

        You’re sounding like a cult yourself, calling other churches “ apostate” that’s literally JW talk. Sad to see.

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      9. .

        Since you refuse to believe what our Lord and Savior said, and you refuse to accept the physical evidence found of a crucified person in the Catacombs, and you refuse to go and find those Bibles and look at the Greek references that they used which is usually at the very beginning or sometimes at the back, there is nothing else that I can do for you.

        Yeshua Hamashiach…

        New King James Version And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,

        Numbers 21:8 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent and mount it on a pole. When anyone who is bitten looks at it, he will live.”

        Numbers 21:9 So Moses made a bronze snake and mounted it on a pole. If anyone who was bitten looked at the bronze snake, he would live.

        So you can believe ‘man’ or you can believe our Lord and Savior and the physical evidence that He has left for us in the Catacombs…. Your free will, your free choice… So Satan has used the Jehovah Witness’s to turn people away from the Truth…. To reject our Lord and Saviors very Word… Things never change… sigh….

        The have not found even ONE cross or image of a cross in the early Christian Graves…. Crosses only appear AFTER the church went apostate and started accepting pagan images and symbols…..

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      10. So you think the body of Christ is in the “ Catacombs”?

        Let’s see the hypocrisy unfold, you claim that the translations use the word “nail” ok I’ll go with you on this.

        But if they agree with your belief rejecting the cross and instead it’s a single upright pole with no cross beam. Then why did they not also translate the word stauros into “pole” instead of cross?

        Here we go:

        Matthew 10:38

        New Living Translation If you refuse to take up your CROSS and follow me, you are not worthy of being mine.

        Contemporary English Version And unless you are willing to take up your CROSS and come with me, you are not fit to be my disciples.

        GOD’S WORD Whoever doesn’t take up his CROSS and follow me doesn’t deserve to be my disciple.

        International Standard Version The one who doesn’t take up his CROSS and follow me isn’t worthy of me.

        A Faithful Version And the one who does not take up his CROSS and follow Me is not worthy of Me

        So why are all your translations using the word cross if according to you Jesus was not crucified on a cross?

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      11. So you’re being a hypocrite, you want to believe in a stake yet those same translators exposed your belief and now you want to reject them.

        You’re the same as the JW’s and the Muslims when it comes to this, be consistent if you agree with those translations then you should also believe when they translated it cross.

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      12. .

        No one here on earth is perfect. You should know that. Errors are being corrected over time. Thank you so very much for calling me another name. What Kindergarten did you say that you attended?

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      13. So you claim that God’s word is not perfect? It’s not calling names it’s the truth, if you’re willing to accept that those translators said “nail” yet they also translated it “cross” then you should except all of it.

        But because you’ve been under the belief that it was a stake as oppose to a cross, your belief has holes in it. And it was exposed, so now you’ve reduced yourself to saying I’ll except one thing as opposed to the other from the same source. That’s called hypocrisy.

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      14. So that means the translation you’re going by cannot be true. Otherwise that’s hypocritical to accept a person’s translation for one thing yet not the other. If they made an incorrect translation then how can you believe any of their translation? That’s a huge problem.

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      15. .

        In that book that was done using ALL of those MSS, they did translate cross as a pale or stake (their word same as pole) and nail singular in John 20:25… The book took over 9 years to complete…

        Would you be interested in trading salvation stories…. how you came to be saved and mine on how I came to be saved? I really respect that you have not just cut me off like so many others do, but have had a dialogue with me. YOU HAVE MY RESPECT.

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      16. .

        So now I am lost and a hypocrite…. I sure am wracking them up for 72 years old…. LOL…. I can’t imagine what name you will call me next… you are very creative and have an extremely low opinion of little old me….. LOL… But I still love (agape) my brothers and sisters in Christ and that includes you… Your page on Islam was interesting…. Did you know that the top Muslim Cleric in Hitler’s day was personal friends with Hitler? Also, the Muslims were the only non-Aryan people that Hitler allowed to form an ZZ Squad. Some of the other ZZ Squads were recorded as saying that the Muslim ZZ Squad was too cruel!!!

        How Nazis courted the Islamic world during WWII | Middle East | News and analysis of events in the Arab world | DW | 13.11.2017

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      17. .

        I just read the section where the Q’ran says Yeshua is God….. I wish I still had that parallel translation of the JW’s that called Yeshua God….. They took off with it the day I showed it to them and ‘new’ editions have been ‘changed’ of course…..

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      18. .

        Try this… In Gen 1:1 where it says ‘and the world WAS without form and void (Heb: Tohoo and Bohoo) take a Strong’s Concordance and try to look up the word ‘WAS’ being used there. You will not find it. Why? Because it is NOT THERE. The correct Hebrew word is ‘BECAME’. Many later translations have either corrected this or started putting a footnote that the correct word is ‘BECAME’. Isaiah 45:18 says that God did NOT create the earth ‘tohoo’ and the word ‘bohoo’ is only used of the destruction caused by war (Jer 4:23) which kind of sounds like Satan’s rebellion to me. This makes room for the prehistoric age. Bible fact and science fact in 100% agreement and sooooooo many Bibles translated by apostate translators wrong.

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      19. My friend you’re still trying to come with these nonsensical arguments? First you’ve misquoted the verse is Genesis 1:2 NOT Genesis 1:1

        Genesis 1:2 has nothing to do with the topic we’re discussing, now you’re jumping around like a monkey from topic to topic.

        Our topic was the cross, not if the earth “was” without form etc. I’m used to this kind of tactic dealing with Muslims, which sadly you’re sounding like them in trying to discredit God’s word.

        If you’re familiar the word “was” is found in Genesis 1:2 it’s הָיְתָה

        I own a Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) which is full Hebrew the word “was” is found there.

        The word NAILS is found in the Greek in John 20:25.

        I can’t take you seriously anymore as all your arguments have been proven false and without knowledge or understanding.

        And I might add hypocritical, the same people you’re calling “apostate” are the same translators you’re reading from. Therefore, how can you trust anything they have translated?

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      20. .

        So now I am a monkey, stupid (without knowledge), retarded (without understanding), a hypocrite, and maybe a Muslim to boot… I was wondering what name you would come up with next, you do not disappoint, you came up with at least a couple of new ones….. So it is Gen 1:2… it is still Gen 1 and does not negate the point…. Gee, guess what, I am not PERFECT…. LOL.. But the point is…

        Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens, God Himself that formed the earth and made it—He hath established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: Vain (TOHOO). The word ‘create’ used her means an original or first creation the same as in Gen 1:1

        Genesis 1:22 Now the earth was formless and empty (TOHOO and BOHOO).

        God did not create (Create: an original creation) the earth TOHOO… He formed it to be inhabited… Which makes the word BECAME correct instead of ‘was’.

        Next, YOU were questioning the accuracy of Bible ‘translations’, which being done by apostates leaves lots of errors…. One of which I gave you as a blatant example, the correction which you can find in a LOT Of better translations… It is not just me… I am definitely not alone in this….

        According to the Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon, hayah can be translated “to become” or “to come to pass.” The word is translated “became” or “become” 133 times in the Old Testament. (An example of hayah describing the transition from one state to another is Genesis 19:26 where Lot’s wife became—hayah—a pillar of salt.)

        You either need to accept that it is BECAME or else you have a big contradiction between Gen 1:2 and Isa 45:18

        The word NAILS is found in the Greek in John 20:25.

        After 9 years of studying ALL OF THOSE ANCIENT MSS, Bullinger saw that NAIL, singular, was the most correct translation…. I gave you a listing of all of those MSS… go take a look for yourself. All of those OTHER translations that I cited for you also decided that the MSS with the word NAIL is correct. So it is a matter of which MSS and translators that you are going to believe. The apostate versions or the correct versions. Homer uses the word STAUROS 3 times in his writings. Every single time it is a single wooden post or stake or ‘pole’ if you will. There are NO Christian crosses until at some point in the 4th century when the apostate church started taking in pagans with their signs and symbols of their false gods. The cross being the symbol of the false god ‘Tammuz”. Before that you will not find even one cross on even one Christian grave or tomb.

        I can’t take you seriously anymore as all your arguments have been proven false

        Really?

        Did you prove false the fact that the Romans had loads of Crux Simplex’s and used them for animal enclosures, walls, forts, barricades and crucifixions.

        Did you prove false that there were no crosses or cross symbols being used by Christians until the apostasy in the 4th century.

        Did you prove false that even outside of the Bible STAUROS was used of a single piece of wood as in Homers writings (3 times).

        Did you prove false that Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness on a POLE.

        I see that we have had some disagreements, but I recall you proving nothing false in the above examples.

        Your proving me ‘false’ seems to be a matter of calling me derogatory names and in your mind that apparently settles the issue for you.

        You know, when a person resorts to calling the other person derogatory names, that usually means that they have lost the argument. It is the last foxhole of a desperate soldier.

        Anyway…. I am still very interested in your salvation story. I would love to share my wife’s and mine with you. It is a little different I think. You might find it interesting.

        Heard tonight on a TV Show:

        How do you know God is real?

        My answer: Because I have met Him.

        and

        What about all of the tragedy, misery, evil, suffering and death in this world?

        My Answer: God told me that His Love would right all wrongs, and then he gave me a taste of His Love and let me actually experience a bit of it. I know now that although sounding impossible to humanity, His Love can and will indeed right all wrongs.

        May God Richly Bless and Keep you…. In His Love….

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      21. .

        Forgot one…. and you have proven as FALSE that God did not leave us the remains in the ancient Roman Catacombs of a person that had been crucified with one limb crossed over the other, and ONE NAIL through the bones and into a piece of the wood where the nail was stuck in a knot making it too hard to remove, so they just cut that piece off and left it with the body. I do indeed believe that God left that for us to see.

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      22. .

        how can you trust anything they have translated?

        That is why I have a load of study and language aids and books… and a bunch of different versions of the Bible of course….. LOL… And when the version from one group makes a contradiction in the Bible, and the other groups translations removes that contradiction, I go with the second group…

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      23. .

        How very sad it is when someone like yourself has been influenced by the Apostate Church.

        When I did battle with the Jehovah Witness’s, I had them coming over to my house. The day I finally proved to them that Our Lord and Savior is God and pointed out an error in their own version of the Bible, was the last day they ever came around again. God allowed me to correct many of their errors and they were literally dumfounded. However, since Pastor Chuck Smith, the founder of the very first Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, back in 1965, had recommended reading The Two Babylons by Hislop, I already knew the cross was false. That is the reason his Calvary Chapel had a Holy Spirit Dove Symbol instead of a cross on its building. My wife and I immediately liked that. That was one HUGE Revival, literally exploding all over the place with God moving and saving people left and right and spreading to other towns, cities and even overseas…. God really blessed his ministry and touched an untold number of hearts by the hundreds and thousands…

        Amen!!!

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      24. 1. Are you trying to boast about speaking to JW’s? My friend that’s nothing new to me you don’t even know who I am and what I do, and I don’t need to boast to you or anyone else.

        2. Just so you’re where I fellowshipped doesn’t have crosses or doves, there are none of those things. We only had scripture on the wall, nothing else. If you go to Calvary Chapel that’s your choice. I know someone from there.

        3. Pastor Chuck Smith unfortunately has given false reassurance to people. If you’d like to read about it here you go:

        Pastor Chuck Smith and Don Stewart give bad advice to a Catholic on the radio

        https://carm.org/miscellaneous-topics/pastor-chuck-smith-and-don-stewart-give-bad-advice-to-a-catholic-on-the-radio/?highlight=Pastor%20Chuck%20Smith

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      25. .

        “Stauros” interpreted as simple stake only[ edit]

        Crucifixion on a crux simplex ad affixionem: drawing in a 1629 reprint of De cruce of Justus Lipsius (1547-1606):

        In his 1871 study of the history of the cross, Episcopal preacher Henry Dana Ward accepted as the only form of the gibbet on which Jesus died “a pale, a strong stake, a wooden post”. [13]

        Anglican theologian E. W. Bullinger, in The Companion Bible (which was completed and published in 1922, [14] nine years after his 1913 death), was emphatic in his belief that stauros never meant two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle, “but always of one piece alone … There is nothing [of the word stauros] in the Greek of the N.T. even to imply two pieces of timber.” Bullinger wrote that in the catacombs of Rome Christ was never represented there as “hanging on a cross” and that the cross was a pagan symbol of life (the ankh) in Egyptian churches that was borrowed by the Christians. He cited a letter from English Dean John William Burgon, who questioned whether a cross occurred on any Christian monument of the first four centuries and wrote: “The ‘invention’ of it in pre-Christian times, and the ‘invention’ of its use in later times, are truths of which we need to be reminded in the present day. The evidence is thus complete, that the Lord was put to death upon an upright stake, and not on two pieces of timber placed in any manner.” [15]

        With regard to the “primary” or “original” meaning of the Greek word σταυρός, William Edwy Vine (1873–1949) wrote in his Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, published in 1940: “stauros denotes, primarily, ‘an upright pale or stake’. On such malefactors were nailed for execution. Both the noun and the verb stauroo, ‘to fasten to a stake or pale’, are originally to be distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two beamed cross”. He said the shape of the ecclesiastical form of a two-beamed cross “had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name) in Chaldea and nearby lands, including Egypt”. He added that third-century churches, which by then had departed from certain doctrines of the Christian faith, accepted pagans into the faith in order to increase their prestige and allowed them to retain their pagan signs and symbols. “Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the ‘cross’ of Christ.” [16] This association of the cross symbol with Tammuz had already been made by Abram Herbert Lewis in his 1892 book Paganism Surviving in Christianity. [17]

        P.S. I do not think of you as ‘lost’ but as a fellow Christian….Respect…. Amen…

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      26. Nice copy paste. Question is that Jesus pictured here yes or no?

        I already mentioned that an upright stake doesn’t mean that it negates a crossbeam, can you provide evidence that it does?

        I’m sorry but I cannot take what you said seriously, you got all of this from Wikipedia? Wikipedia is not scholarly research if you want to learn about a subject dig deeper into the issue don’t run to Wikipedia.

        It’s alright to start there but it’s not the basis for real research. People literally can put anything they want on there.

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      27. .

        I do not know why you have to lower yourself to insults? I believe that I have shown you nothing but RESPECT. Very sad. HOWEVER, the part on Wikipedia that I copied and sent to you is from Bullinger, Vines and others really great and recognized Bible Scholars. I have their Greek Language books here. In spite of it being on Wikipedia, it is 100-% accurate and correct NFO in the part that I sent you. Those men were and are recognized as very great Bible Scholars. Yes you do have to be very careful what you read on Wikipedia, but in this instance it is good, true, accurate and very scholarly work. Those men were recognized in their day for their great and in depth knowledge of the Bible and the Greek Manuscripts we get our Bibles from. If you do not have them in your collection of study aids, I strongly suggest that you get copies for yourself.

        A Critical Lexicon and Concordance To The English and Greek New Testament by Ethelbert W. Bullinger

        and

        Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words by W.E. Vine, Merrill F. Unger, William White, Jr.

        My copies are very well worn.

        The points taken, Thomas says nail, singular (I documented this for you in other Bible translations). Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness on a Pole, the remains of a person that was crucified show one limb crossed over the other and the single NAIL still stuck in the bone and a piece of the crucifixion wood. The piece of wood having had a knot in it making it too difficult to remove and easier just to cut the wood and let it go with the body. Not even ONE cross image on the tombs of the earliest Christians. NONE. They only started showing up historically after the church went apostate and started allowing people to bring in things from their pagan religions. You do know that right? It is pretty much common knowledge that at a point in history that the church went apostate and started allowing things from pagan religions in to the church. Surely you are aware of this?

        Question: Have you ever read ‘The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop’? It is a must have for any Christian Library and I bought mine from a main stream church in their bookstore. The section on ‘crosses’ has really heavily documented history on this subject. A very scholarly work indeed.

        Please leave off with the veiled insults. It is beneath you. Lets both show RESPECT for each other. I am not lost and you are not lost. We are both washed in the Blood of the Lamb….

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      28. My friend, you said in manuscripts, can you provide these manuscripts which you claim means only 1 nail was used? I’m not concerned with translations because you brought up Greek. As I’ve stated before I own the Greek New Testament as well as the Torah in Hebrew.

        Once again provide the manuscript which agrees with your claim, do you have it for evidence? It’s sad that you’re so consumed with the cross being “pagan”. As a Christian I said before that I don’t worship the cross, I worship the One who was on the cross.

        Do you even read or understand Greek to make the claim that there was only 1 nail used in the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus Christ?

        Watchtower literature indicated a belief that Christ was crucified on a cross not on a stake as the Watchtower currently teaches (Reasoning from the scriptures p 283)

        Early Watchtower illustrations showed pictures of Jesus crucified on a cross, example can be found in their 1927 Watchtower publication entitled “Creation”; the January 1, 1891 issue of their magazine; 1921 Watchtower book called “The Harp of God” etc.

        You fail to point out that the Greek word stauros was used in reference to a multitude of wooden structures used for execution in those days. Robert Bowman an American Evangelical Christian theologian stated that stauros as a wooden structure could represent shapes “similar to the Greek letter tau (T) and the plus sign (+), occasionally using two diagonal beams (X), as well as infrequently a simple upright stake with no crosspiece. To argue that only the last-named form was used, or that stauros could be used only for that form, is contradictory to the actual historical facts and is based on a naive restriction of the term to its original or simplest meaning”.

        To summarise the word stauros can refer to a T, X or a shape which is upright. Hence when I said before the word stauros doesn’t negate that a crossbeam was used.

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      29. .

        I tried sending this but got back an error message?

        I was interested in your Church. Since you do not have any images or symbols on or in your Church. If my wife and I had seen a Church like that locally, we would have been very interested. So are you a non-denominational , Pentecostal or ‘other’ Church? Where can I get more information on it. Is there a Church like yours here in Southern CA? Thank you and God bless and keep you.

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      30. Not trying to be mean when I said it’s hypocritical, I was only pointing out that if you accept their translation then you should accept all of it. Not portions of it. I’m just a believer in the Lord Jesus, an autonomous local assembly (Gospel Hall).

        Also I just want to say that you shouldn’t be so concerned about images or symbols, what’s most important is are you saved? Secondly, is making sure it’s a local fellowship which is sound biblically.

        I’m not sure how South you are in California but there’s one Culver City, San Diego, just look for a Gospel Hall. God bless you as well.

        Like

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