The Watchtower’s position is that Jesus Christ is the first created creature Jehovah made, they cite passages such as Colossians 1:15 and Revelation 3:14 to prove their point. But upon further look does this make sense according to what the Bible teaches? The Lord Jesus clearly stated that He existed before He came to Earth through the virgin birth.
John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
When discussing the deity of Christ with Jehovah Witnesses they will bring up the word firstborn in Colossians 1:15-17 and this is how it reads in their New World Translation.
If we take a look at the Watchtower’s Kingdom Greek Interlinear (also found on their website) the deception becomes more clear. This same passage reads:
Why does the Watchtower insert the word “other” when it’s not found in the Greek text, if you read it with and without the word “other” you can see the significance of how the word “other” alters the text to fit with the WT’s view that Jesus is a created creature.
The word “other” is rendered in 2 different ways in the Greek. One is allos and the other is heteros.
ἄλλος állos, al’-los; a primary word; “else,” i.e. different (in many applications):—more, one (another), (an-, some an-)other(-s, -wise).
ἕτερος héteros, het’-er-os; of uncertain affinity; (an-, the) other or different:—altered, else, next (day), one, (an-)other, some, strange.
Looking closely at the Greek text you will not find either one of these words in Colossians 1:15-17. Here’s the Greek text:
ὅς ἐστιν εἰκὼν τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα τὰ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς τὰ ὁρατὰ καὶ τὰ ἀόρατα εἴτε θρόνοι εἴτε κυριότητες εἴτε ἀρχαὶ εἴτε ἐξουσίαι· τὰ πάντα δι᾽ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν ἔκτισται καὶ αὐτός ἐστιν πρὸ πάντων καὶ τὰ πάντα ἐν αὐτῷ συνέστηκεν
In all other Bibles other than the NWT renders the passage:
According to Colossians verse 15 Jesus Christ is the firstborn of every creature, JW’s claim the word firstborn means Jesus was “created”. If so then how do they interpret Jesus being the firstborn from the dead In verse 18?
The word firstborn in Greek is prōtotokos (πρωτότοκος) which can mean a literal birth, but the word is also used figuratively as well. The context of the passage dictates how the word firstborn is to be interpreted. The rest of the passage tells us that Jesus Christ created all things in heaven, in earth visible and invisible. The Lord Jesus is the one doing the creating, again in verse 18 it says that Jesus would have the preeminence (Superiority).
According to the Watchtower Jesus is the first created creature by Jehovah, if this is so then how did Jesus exist outside of time? Time is created by God and if Jesus is only a “creature” how can a creature exist outside of time, unless He’s God. Additionally, if Jesus was created before the heavens and earth, where did Jesus exist if there was no heaven for him to exist in?
By asking these questions we see how quickly the theology of Jehovah Witnesses doesn’t hold up. It’s not our intention to tear down JW’s but we’re challenging their beliefs in order to make them think. If they would put down the Watchtower magazine and read the Bible (not the NWT), then they might see how wrong the teachings of the Watchtower are.
Whatsoever Things Are True 
Jesus is the firstborn of the new creation. He is the promised one in the Garden of Eden. He came only into being as the seed of king David and the seed of Abraham, when he was born in 4 bCE. Before that period Jesus Christ was not yet born, nor did exist, though his name as your name and ours, was already written in the Book of life and death. (long before Abraham was born)
LikeLike
“though his name as your name and ours, was already written in the Book of life and death. (long before Abraham was born)”
I speak for myself and would say that my name was not always written in the book of life.
Q: Are you saying that you existed just as long as Jesus Christ, and how is it that all things were made by Jesus what does “all” mean (John 1:3)?
LikeLike
You write “I speak for myself and would say that my name was not always written in the book of life.” this giving the idea that God would have not know you from the unset of the world?!
I am not at all saying that I would have existed as long as Jesus existed, neither that Jesus or I would have been existing before Abraham was born. That is one of the common faults several Christians are making about Jesus saying he was before Abraham.
LikeLike
You said: “ Jesus is the firstborn of the new creation. He is the promised one in the Garden of Eden. He came only into being as the seed of king David and the seed of Abraham, when he was born in 4 bCE. Before that period Jesus Christ was not yet born, nor did exist, though his name as your name and ours, was already written in the Book of life and death. (long before Abraham was born)”
You didn’t answer the second part of my question.
I asked: “Q: Are you saying that you existed just as long as Jesus Christ, and how is it that all things were made by Jesus what does “all” mean (John 1:3)?”
John 1:3 in context says that all things was made by Him, what does the word “all” mean? And who is the Him spoken of here in John 1:3?
You also said “I am not at all saying that I would have existed as long as Jesus existed”
You certainly have because to say “Before that period Jesus Christ was not yet born, nor did exist, THOUGH HIS NAME AS YOUR NAME AND OURS, WAS ALREADY WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE AND DEATH.” is placing yourself on the same level as Jesus Christ.
Yet Christ said of Himself that He came down from heaven (John 6:38). This very statement perplexed the children of Israel. How do you explain Jesus saying He came down from heaven if He didn’t exist before the virgin birth?
LikeLike
I answered your question “Are you saying that you existed just as long as Jesus Christ, and how is it that all things were made by Jesus what does “all” mean (John 1:3)?” with telling you though I was written in the Book of life and death, I was not in existence, like Jesus was not existing yet. I myself came only into life, like Jesus did, until I was born many thousand years later than the creation of mankind.
I do not place myself on the same level as Christ Jesus. That is your interpretation when somebody calls himself a man being born under God and being in the Book of God. As a Child of God, I am also know to God, but even when I would not have been a Child of God and not belonging to Christ Jesus I still would be a acreation of God and in that Book of life and death and very well know to God. You too and others around you are also known by God, but that does not mean you would be equal to Christ or other Biblical figures.
Jesus has all the right saying he came down from heaven, because he was placed in the womb of the young girl by the Holy Spirit of God, i.e. by God’s Power. Coming from God, Who is in heaven does not mean Jesus was in heaven himself. It is only much later, after Jesus his resurrection that Jesus was made higher than the angels (having been lower than them before, and having come to sit next to God to be our mediator by God and to be a high priest for God.
Jesus opened the way to God for us. By him everything has become possible; By him we now can enter the Kingdom of God and enter this new world.
LikeLike
You’ve still yet to answer my question, once again I’ll ask perhaps you’ll address my question directly.
Let’s read in context:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν
In Greek means “face to face” the two individuals spoken of here “the Word” which we’re told was made flesh (John 1:14) was with God and was face to face.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
In Greek the word for “The same” is “He was” οὗτος
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Question: Who is the “Him” spoken of here which is referred to as the Word that was made flesh (John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.) because it says in verse 3 “All things we made by Him” this Person who made “All things” cannot be in the category of being created. I’d like you to address this.
Also provide biblical reference that Jesus didn’t exist in heaven before the virgin birth. Because He said “I came down from heaven” you and I didn’t because Christ also said:
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.
Yet you said “ with telling you though I was written in the Book of life and death, I was not in existence, like Jesus was not existing yet.”
We know the prophet Isaiah saw God “I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne”.
Isaiah 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
This verse is referred to in John 12 saying Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus Christ.
John 12:36-41 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
Now how did Isaiah see Jesus sitting on the throne if Jesus didn’t exist at the time until His birth in Bethlehem?
LikeLike
“The Word was in the beginning, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a God.” (The New Testament in An Improved Version)
“In the beginning existed the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was a god.” (The Monotessaron)
“In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word.” (Emphatic Diaglott – interlineary side)
a.o. translations.
Read in context:
(Jo 1:1-3) “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”
This passage is usually the chief reference on which the pre-existence and deity of Christ are argued. The majority of people forgetting that here is spoken about a Word, a result from speaking.
Christ was not literally the Word. He was the word “made flesh”. (Jo 1:14), the one promised by God, in the Garden of Eden and in later prophecies, having come into reality many thousands of years later
The Greek word “logos” translated “Word” expresses the divine intention, mind, or purpose.1 Young defines “logos” as “a word, speech, matter, reason.”2 In the a.v. “logos” is translated by more than 20 different English words and is used for utterances of men (e.g., Jo 17:20) as well as those of God (Jo 5:38).
From the beginning of time there was The God, the Elohim Hashem Jehovah speaking and by His Words all things came into existence.
“In the beginning was the Word … all things were made by him.”3 “logos” does not in itself denote personality. It is personified by the masculine gender in the a.v., The Diaglott avoids confusion by translating the pronouns in the neuter-“through it every thing was done.”4 An Old Testament parallel to the personification of logos is the personification of wisdom: “The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.” (Pr 8:22, 23). In this passage, wisdom is personified as a woman. (Pr 8:1, 2).
“All things were made by him”-John is apparently alluding to the creation recorded in Genesis. God spoke, and it was done (e.g. “And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.” (Ge 1:3). Notice another allusion- Jo 1:7,8). But this creation was not accompanied by Christ, but by the “logos” of God. This is indicated by several passages:
a. “By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.” “For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.” (Ps 33:6,9). See also Ps 107:20; 147:15,18,19; Isa 55:11).
b. ” … by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water … But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.” (2Pe 3:5, 7).
c. See also (Heb 11:3) cf. (Jer 10:12, 13).5
It is by the Word of God that Mary also came to know she would be with child, not by a human sexual contact, but by the Power of God. That way the Word of God or the Speaking of God came into a human being and became by the birth of Jesus into a human being onto this world.
In one of your questions you yourself mention
“Who is the “Him” spoken of here which is referred to as the Word that was made flesh (John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.) ”
There are two “Hims” on the one site “Him” who is the Almighty allknowing eternal God and on the other site “him” who is not eternal and does not know everything and who was declared by The Him, His heavenly Father to be His begotten son. though you write it yoursel” the glory as of the only begotten of the Father” you do not believe it?!?
May I also remind you that It is also noteworthy that although the writer to the Hebrews speaks in exalted terms of Christ (e.g. “express image of his [{God’s }] person”-Heb 1:3), “logos” is used of God’s message, and not of Christ himself. See (Heb 2:2; 4:2,12; 7:28; 12:19) and (Heb 13:7,22).
In my previous answers I mentioned already what it meant that Jesus came down from heaven. Either you did not read my replies properly or you did not understand my explanation? Jesus being placed in the womb of a human being (Mary) was coming from God Who is in heaven, coming from this God in heaven so also coming from heaven.
Concerning the writings of the prophets you seem to take the English version “Lord” as speaking about Christ, also when that word “Lord” was used where in the original text was written “Jehovah” Who is the God of gods and not Jesus Christ like you imply. It is Jehovah God Who sits on the Throne of God and Jesus is sitting next to Him, and not on the throne of God. Jesus is also the high priest before God, which you seem to ignore or to forget. And Jesus is also the mediator between God and man, another facet you seem to ignore or not to believe. When Jesus is God Himself he can not mediate for us, because than he would have direct contact with us or we with him. Though we may not forget that Jesus prepared the way to his heavenly Father so that we can have direct contact with God and come to Him (Jehovah God) as children of God.
Because you mix Jehovah with Jesus and take God to be Jesus or Jesus to be God, you seem to read all the prophecies and words from the Old Testament wrong. The example you bring forward of Isaiah 6:1 is an explicit proof of your misreadings. In that verse Isaiah is not at all speaking about Jesus Christ, but about his God, the Adonai Elohim Hashem Jehovah. the Adonoi sitting upon a kisse, high and lifted up, and His robe filled the Heikhal. (Jewish Orthodox Bible) In verse 3 you can read that it is about the LORD of hosts of Whom the earth is full of His glory!
3 and this one called to that one “Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah of Armies; there is a whole worldful of his glory,” (Isa 6:3 The Bible in Living English)
“1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw Jehovah (the Lord) sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and his train filled the temple. 2 Above him stood the seraphim: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. 3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is Jehovah of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.” (Isa 6:1-3 ASV)
Isa 6:1-3 NHEBJE In the year that king Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up; and his train filled the temple. (2) Above him stood the seraphim. Each one had six wings. With two he covered his face. With two he covered his feet. With two he flew. (3) One called to another, and said, “Holy, holy, holy, is Jehovah of hosts! The whole earth is full of his glory!”
Also do not forget that Exodus 15:11 says :
11 Who among the gods is like you, O Jehovah?
Who is like you, showing yourself mighty in holiness?
The One to be feared with songs of praise, the One doing wonders.
Those privileged seraphs in Isaiah’s text their assignment is to see that Jehovah’s holiness is declared and that His glory is acknowledged throughout the universe, of which the earth is a part. His glory is seen in all that He created and will soon be discerned by all earth’s inhabitants. (Numbers 14:21; Psalm 19:1-3; Habakkuk 2:14) The threefold declaration, “holy, holy, holy,” is no evidence of a Trinity. Rather, it is a threefold emphasizing of God’s holiness. (Compare Revelation 4:8.) Jehovah is holy to the superlative degree.
May I advice you to read the Old Testament with the intention it was written and when writing about the Most High Adonai, the Elohim Hashem Jehovah, to read and think “God” and not to read god the son or Jesus, when there is no intention to refer to him.
I do agree with such Bibles where God’s Name is done away with it becomes more difficult to know about whom is written, though if you would read carefully and compare with other places or verses in the Bible you would still be able to find out about whom has been spoken and should be able to avoid mixing the Biblical characters like you do.
LikeLike
I don’t need your khutbah, I actually own the Greek New Testament, therefore, let’s go step by step.
My original question was not about John 1:1 but I’ll go with you. The correct rendering of the Greek in John 1:1 is “and God was the Word.”
The Greek text is where all English translations get their rendering, therefore, to translate the text as “the word was a god.” is incorrect.
While this version (The New Testament in An Improved Version) cannot be portrayed as Unitarian or Universalist as it was translated by an Arminian, it’s a long way from orthodox Christianity; and in diverse ways it was agreeable to Deistic, Unitarian, and Universalist perspectives. But I’ll go with you.
“the Word was a god”
Since you agree with these unorthodox versions, that means you have more than 1 God and thus you’re a polytheist. Which flys in the face of scripture.
The Bible is clear there’s only 1 God (Deuteronomy 6:4).
You said “Christ was not literally the Word”
Provide references that agree with this statement. You’ve still yet to answer my question and I’ll keep asking until you directly respond.
John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by HIM; and without HIM was not any thing made that was made.
Note these are personal pronouns that refer to the Word. If the Word is not literally Christ then who is the HIM spoken of here? Bare in mind the Word is called HIM BEFORE HE was made flesh (John 1:14).
Answer this and we’ll move forward. Lastly, God’s name is not “Jehovah” that’s a made-up name consisting of YHWH and Adonai.
YaHoWaH = Jehovah is an anglicised name that was made up.
I say Yahweh but Jehovah seriously this is something you should be aware of.
LikeLike
You wrote: “The Greek text is where all English translations get their rendering, therefore, to translate the text as “the word was a god.” is incorrect.” by that showing that you do not know lots of Bible translations in English where is written “a god”.
The Bible mentions also a lot of gods man had made himself next to God. Remember that angels, Moses, Pharaoh, Baal, Apollo, Zeus a.o were called gods, like today several people have still their gods, like Lady Gaga, Britney Spears, George Clooney, Mohamed Ali, Elvis Presley, Lukaku, and many others.
You also seem to forget god is not a name but a title, meaning ‘a high placed person’, an ‘most important person’ and was as such given to many ancient rulers, kings and pharaohs.
Concerning gods, I only keep to the God of gods and not like you to a three headed god (by which you are a polytheist and not me who keeps to the single Singular God of Israel, who can not be seen by man, whilst one of your gods – the god son Jesus- was seen by many, though they did not fall dead).
Concerning Yahweh or Jehovah, having a Jewish family, plus knowing the Hebrew Scriptures, I know how they pronounce the Tetragrammaton which has three syllables whilst Yahweh is only two syllables. God made the Judaic people His People and for sure I am convinced they (Jews and Jeshuaists) do know the Name of the Adonai.
The Elohim Hashem Jehovah is not at all an anglicised name that was made up. It is God’s or Allah’s Name which you shall be able to find in lots of languages (as Yehowah in the old vocabulary, later Jehowhah, Jehovha and in contemporary writing Jehowah, Jehovah and Jehova) and next to the scrolls, you shall find it in very old manuscripts and very old written by hand by the scribes, and lots of ancient as well as contemporary printed books in lots of languages.
As I explained in my previous response: the Word is the result of Speaking. God spoke before Jesus was born and before Abraham was born.
As I said God promised Jesus in the Garden of Eden, but even before the fall of man God knew what was going to happen and also had already Jesus name in His books, like He also has your name in His books. That does not make you exist already before Adam and Eve or before Jesus, neither saying that you were with God before the creation.
LikeLike
“The Bible mentions also a lot of gods man had made himself next to God. Remember that angels, Moses, Pharaoh, Baal, Apollo, Zeus a.o were called gods, like today several people have still their gods, like Lady Gaga, Britney Spears, George Clooney, Mohamed Ali, Elvis Presley, Lukaku, and many others.”
The context of our conversation is that you believe Jesus is “a god” which was with God in the beginning. Therefore, idols made by men are irrelevant to our conversation. Additionally, “Allah” is a false god trust me you don’t want to go there.
Q: If Jesus is “a god” as you claim, tell me is He a true God or false god?
LikeLike
You write “The context of our conversation is that you believe Jesus is “a god” which was with God in the beginning.” But I do not believe such thing. I believe that Jesus is the son of God who was born in 4bCE. as the seed of David.
‘God’ is a title, which is given to special or high person, as such certain people would use that title for their idols. I do not say Jesus is God, but accept what God Himself said about Jesus, namely that he is the only begotten beloved son of God in whom the Elohim Hashem Jehovah was pleased.
“and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” (Mt 3:17 ASV)
“Behold, my servant whom I have chosen; My beloved in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my Spirit upon him, And he shall declare judgment to the Gentiles.” (Mt 12:18 ASV)
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.” (Joh 3:16 ASV)
“For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when there was borne such a voice to him by the Majestic Glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased:” (2Pe 1:17 ASV)
LikeLike
Nice diversion. Once again I’ll ask. You said Jesus is “a god” according to you is Jesus a true God or false god.
LikeLike